Migration, Is there any evidence either way Options

[wiiawiwb]

Regardless of what people think of the two Monsterquest episodes about Snelgrove Lake I found their observation of blueberry season to be very interesting. In the first episode, blueberries were in season and they had "activity" whereas in episode two the blueberry season was late and the "activity" was miles away where they were in season.

I think those type of Sherlock Holmes insights make play a vital role in identifying the underlying reason(s) for movement of BF from place to place. If you can predict movement you would greatly increase your odds of discovery.

[RB]

Yep… I agree… which is one reason Kathy and I have been plotting areas of potential food sources, such as berries, for the past several seasons…

Unfortunately, there are many variables which factor into it… such as rainfall, temperatures and sunlight… And while you would suspect these factors to remain somewhat constant, we have found they are not…

For instance, this year we had an unusual amount of large forest fires in the Sierra Nevada mountains (in our main study area anyway) than normal… which, among other suspected factors, seemed to affect the berry production and ripening processes this year…

Abnormally low food supplies, along with the inordinate amount of smoke in the air seemed to diminish activity… this may be reflected in the almost complete absence of sighting reports in the Sierras this year…

Now, this may be a bigger problem in the Sierras than in other portions of the Pacific Northwest, as we have less rainfall down here…

So… what can we glean from this information? Well… if we start with the premise my very good friend, Cliff Barackman, so aptly stated when I interviewed him earlier this year on “Let’s Talk Bigfoot”… “I believe we wholly underestimate these creatures.”… then we may begin to understand we know almost nothing about their behavior, or their potential behavior… and if that is the case, then we must greatly broaden our scope of research…

If we decide there is no way these animals will travel more than a few miles… say, no more than 50 miles in any given direction… we must re-evaluate that premise…

If we decide there is no way they will travel more than 100 miles in any given direction… we must re-evaluate that premise as well…

So how far should we imagine Sas might travel to reach Shang-rah-la? I think the answer may be… as far as necessary…

Abraham Lincoln was once asked by reporter (referring to his long legs)… how long he believed a man’s legs should be… Mr. Lincoln’s answer was something like… “As long as necessary to reach the floor.” Something to think about…

[bipedalist]

Regardless of what people think of the two Monsterquest episodes about Snelgrove Lake I found their observation of blueberry season to be very interesting. In the first episode, blueberries were in season and they had "activity" whereas in episode two the blueberry season was late and the "activity" was miles away where they were in season.

I think those type of Sherlock Holmes insights make play a vital role in identifying the underlying reason(s) for movement of BF from place to place. If you can predict movement you would greatly increase your odds of discovery.

Hey play William Rowe......... hide in a blueberry bush all night waiting for a squatch, good luck!

[bipedalist]

Yep… I agree… which is one reason Kathy and I have been plotting areas of potential food sources, such as berries, for the past several seasons…

Unfortunately, there are many variables which factor into it… such as rainfall, temperatures and sunlight… And while you would suspect these factors to remain somewhat constant, we have found they are not…

For instance, this year we had an unusual amount of large forest fires in the Sierra Nevada mountains (in our main study area anyway) than normal… which, among other suspected factors, seemed to affect the berry production and ripening processes this year…

Abnormally low food supplies, along with the inordinate amount of smoke in the air seemed to diminish activity… this may be reflected in the almost complete absence of sighting reports in the Sierras this year…

Now, this may be a bigger problem in the Sierras than in other portions of the Pacific Northwest, as we have less rainfall down here…

So… what can we glean from this information? Well… if we start with the premise my very good friend, Cliff Barackman, so aptly stated when I interviewed him earlier this year on “Let’s Talk Bigfoot�… “I believe we wholly underestimate these creatures.�… then we may begin to understand we know almost nothing about their behavior, or their potential behavior… and if that is the case, then we must greatly broaden our scope of research…




If we decide there is no way they will travel more than 100 miles in any given direction… we must re-evaluate that premise as well…

So how far should we imagine Sas might travel to reach Shang-rah-la? I think the answer may be… as far as necessary…

Abraham Lincoln was once asked by reporter (referring to his long legs)… how long he believed a man’s legs should be… Mr. Lincoln’s answer was something like… “As long as necessary to reach the floor.� Something to think about…

Well what can I say I like blueberries, so maybe I'll try a stake out. Also, RB here is another quote from Lincoln I like....of course it was in regard to the War Between the States but ......
"The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country." Lincoln's Second Annual Message to Congress, December 1, 1862. See in parallels with the current financial meltdown....NOT POLITICAL, NOT POLITICAL Along with the "save our country" part, which I think we need to do btw, I would also profer "find the BigMan" as an appropo adjunct.

This post has been edited by bipedalist: Dec 19 2008, 07:56 PM

[damndirtyape]

Good thoughts. Forest fires have usually been mentioned only as something that would make such an animal move away from an area but in fact they can make the opposite happen as well. It wont be but a year or two when a burned out area becomes a great area for wildlife to visit for food.

In Washington, the Forest Service has records of fires and each year a booklet is published as to where, when and to what extent they happened. Putting these on a time line wouldn't be very useful unless localized and even then the event is probably as rare as a major storm, so how important is it? But gathering all of this type of information is not a waste. I think that a relational database with this and other types of information in it will eventually get made and then we will be able to see something come out that will help.

Who knows... in the future we might find out that a significant amount of sightings occur after X amount of years of a major burn given the same habitat. Not only is the area more clear of underbrush so animals can be seen easier but rainfall isn't absorbed as much and runoff makes the streams swell earlier and more often. After reaching 7 cubic feet per minute, Salmon start upstream sooner and berries bloom after being dispersed by a more populous bird and bear usage.

There are many different types of migration, scientists classified them so as to better describe the observed movement patterns. What makes each of them work is not only the environment but the life cycle of each and every animal. Anybody that starts up a Bigfoot study site needs to identify the contained wildlife and edible fauna, locate likely shelter and juvenile raising locations, observe temperature deltas during the year and at elevation, record human influences and storms as well as investigate track finds, sighting reports, identify good locations for wildlife observation and tracking. Networking with locals that live along the designated boundaries of your study area is also very important. Give out contact information to local businesses and authorities or putting up displays can help garner people to watch out or report what they have seen or heard.

In my area 200 square miles is almost too much to handle. 200 square miles of mountainous terrain is actually more than it sounds. 20 x 20 miles of up and down living space. Even with all the FS roads and trails you could not cover it all adequately in a month. This is where "Giganto: The Real King Kong" was filmed. I can not cover it with a helicopter unless above 5,000 feet, and that is just too high to really get a good look. Over the years you work out a plan, team up with others and do get to cover a good portion of the area, but by that time tracks can be weeks old.

[Hairy Man]

I have been working on a paper for years that I just can't seem to finish, but essentially, I have overlaid what I know about Native American landuse (ie., archaeological site locations), deer herd movement, plant maturation and sighting reports (that RB and I have personally investigated) and there is a definite correlation. I haven't factored in fish but I rightfully should. However, fire is clearly a HUGE factor that shouldn't be overlooked....

RB literally spent all spring, summer and fall (we're not officially in winter yet) in the field and although we had negative data, what we learned was amazing. The fires in the Sierra's and valley this spring and summer caused plant maturation to be set back a month and a half...I normally have tomatoes in June, but I had nothing until the middle of July. Thimbleberry, service berry, gooseberry, elderberry, etc. were all equally late in blooming and some didn't produce fruit before they died. RB saw no/little deer or bear in our usual areas that should have been "hot" at the times he was there. This tells us a lot - if sightings are random or made up, environmental variants shouldn't affect it - but yet not only did he not find any traces, no one else reported them either. How are lies affected by real environmental differences??

[Fullybird]

The fact that there has been sightings in almost every corner of North America is evidence enough that they migrate, if in fact, they do exisit of course.

[Elder]

I think we can all agree that there is a lot of guess work yet to be done on projecting the movements of a creature that is always on the move. I have a herd of elk that moves through my property and into the private forest land adjacent to mine. I mark there movements on a calender to see if I can guess when they might return. I found that I can only narrow it down to within a weeks window. Now if there was only 1 elk in the same 300 acres I would probably never see it come through my property. That elk would only have to bypass its previous track route by 10 feet and I would miss its visit. I dont think that a single animal "has" to travel long distances for the reason of eluding us. I rather think that a bf travels to another area out of boredom with its current surroundings or to visit another of its kind.

[Elder]

When starting this thread I wondered if a bigfoot might travel from Mt, Baker to Mt. St. Helens and then maybe to another land mark during the life of its exsistance, never traveling the same path twice as long as it was alive. I also was hoping that maybe some track data would support that. Since it is estimated that a low number, just above a breeding population, exsist. Then the odds of duplicate tracks from 1 individual goes up. Who knows?? Unfortunatley track finds are as rare as sightings. Hairyman, looking forward to that book you are writing. DDA, any books in the works from you?

[PEPPERSFARMS]

RB I know a few humans I'd like to throw rocks at myself!!!!!

I think there is some pattern I don't think it is obvious, but the trigger maybe a combinations of things. Most animals are creatures of habit. I see a ten point buck you can just abut set your clock when he goes to a thick and beds down every day. As far a a pattern for Bf if I knew that I would be out taking pictures and selling them to the highest bidder. I agree patience and time are needed to figure that out.

I had this one incident where a lady reported that someone was sneaking to her house and throwing rocks at her trailer. I talked to her landlord on putting cameras to catch who was doing this. He did not want to be bothered because he advised the woman was a little loony. I took it at that after checking for tracks and other evidence and found none. I thought maybe limbs or something was falling from trees she assured me it was rocks being thrown.

Then about a year later I spoke with her again and she advised that she was throwing table scraps out into the woods and that the rocks started when she quit throwing the scraps into the woods, she quit because it was attracting coons and a radio show advised that you should not do that because of an out break of rabies. She lived about a mile up a rough road and it did not make sense for someone to walk that far just to chuck a few rocks.

A mad BF throwing rocks because she stopped the free hand outs, a possibility. She did not reveal this to me at that time.

This post has been edited by PEPPERSFARMS: Dec 22 2008, 05:56 PM

[damndirtyape]

Here are the different types of Migration I spoke about. I think they could also be used in combinations at certain points:

1. "Seasonal migration
   is migration that corresponds with the change in seasons. Most migration fall within this category. Many altitudinal, longitudinal, latitudinal, and reproductive migrations take place when the seasons change. (DDA Note: Behavior has to be looked at for it's survival advantages, short and long term. This type of behavior has to be monitored for any predictive capabilities. Hunters of game animals monitor weather in order to predict the behavior and take advantage of it.)
   
2. Latitudinal migration
   is the movement of animals north and south. The geese flying south for the winter is one of the most recognizable examples of latitudinal migration. By moving north and south, animals are changing their climate. In the northern hemisphere, the winters are colder as you move north and warmer as you move south. On the other hand, summers in the north can be rich in food, especially in the far north where summers are short, but the days are very long.(DDA Note: I am hard pressed in naming anything but birds that move in this manner due to a seasonal temperature. You could look at larger mammals moving north and south looking for water, shelter and such.)
   
3. Altitudinal migration
   is the movement of animals up and down major land features such as mountains. While food may be plentiful in alpine meadows in summer, the winters will be colder and have more snow as you move higher up. Many animals take advantage of the summers, and then move to lower more moderate elevations during the winter. (DDA Note: I think the behavior is one that Bigfoot uses regularly. The reason it isn't very predictable is may be that a combination of other types of migration is involved. Maybe they do regularly go up and down the mountains each year but not in the same area.)
   
4. Reproductive migration
   is the movement of animals to bear young. The area may be safer for the young because of fewer predators or more shelter from predators. In other cases, the area is safer because the animal requires a different type of habitat when it is young than when it is older. (DDA Note: We also need to understand that resource requirements may be different between male and females of the species. We know that home ranges of non herd mammals vary in size, shape and seasonal dilation.)
   
5. Nomadic migration
   is the movement of animals not between known areas, but it looks to us more like wandering. Grazing animals will move across larger expanses as the grasses get eaten and they travel to greener pastures. (DDA Note: If researchers think that Bigfoot in the southern states are displaced animals from further north then it might be instructive to search out specific and documented reasons for migration to the south. This years hard winter up north may be just a reason.)
   
6. Removal migration
   is the migration of animals that don't come back. This can be when resources such as food, water or shelter are no longer available to animals where they are. The environment can have changed, through fire, flooding, invasive plant species or human development or other causes and the animals need to leave to survive. Another cause of removal migration is when the resources haven't changed, but the population gets too big, there are too many animals and many of them leave to find food, water and shelter elsewhere. Removal migration is what brought immigrants to America in the 1800s. (DDA Note: Maybe this is what has happened in those areas written about in the past as being hot beds of activity. Study sites need to be dynamic and change with information. Use positive and negative data for this.)
   
7. Complete migration
   is when virtually all members of the species leave their breeding range during the nonbreeding season. Many North American birds are complete migrants. Most complete migrants breeding in northern temperate and arctic areas (such as Alaska) of North America, Europe, and Asia. Complete migrants travel incredible distances, sometimes more than 15,000 miles (25,000 kilometers) per year. The wintering areas for most complete North American migrants are South and Central America, the Caribbean basin, and the southern most United States.
   
8. Partial migration
   The most common type of migration is partial migration. Partial migrant means that some, but not all, members of a species move away from their breeding grounds during the nonbreeding season. There is an overlap between breeding and nonbreeding ranges of the species. Species like Red-tailed Hawk, Herring Gull, and Golden Eagles are partial migrants over much of their North American range.
   
9. Irruptive migration
   Migrations that are not seasonally or geographically predictable are termed irruptive. Such migration may occur one year, but not again for many years. The distances and numbers of individuals involved are also less predictable than with complete or partial migrants. In some years, irruptions can be over long distances and involve many individuals, or they can be short and involve only a few."

This post has been edited by damndirtyape: Dec 22 2008, 08:09 PM

[RB]

Excellent reference there DDA... thanks!

Here's an awesome (old) post by nightwing regarding migration... (hope you don't mind nightwing):

This is an interesting topic!

Being from the Upper midwest myself, I often think that people from other parts of the country really don't understand just how bad winter can get up here.

Last year, in a single week in December we had nearly 90" of snow(yes, 90, as in nearly 8 feet!), and the temp hit -25 on 3 nights. And this was in one of the more "mild"(temperature-wise) areas, western Lower Michigan!

Further north(in the U.P., Northern Wisconsin and Minnesota), it gets even colder!, and in the case of the Upper Penisula, this deep cold comes with awesome ammounts of lake-effect snow, nearly 400" per year in some places.

The drastic severity of our winters causes wildlife to adapt, or perish.

Deer in the snowbelts off of Lake Superior and Lake Michigan often migrate south or east, vacating the area entirely in a real bad winter, so there is some precedent for seasonal migration of large animals in this area.

The wilderness areas of the Upper Midwest are just that, true wilderness on the order found elsware in the lower 48 only in a few areas of the PNW, and possibly, northern Main.

We are talking tracts of 40=50 miles with no roads worth mentioning, and almost no human habitation.

Which leads me to my idea on where sassy goes in the depth of a northern Lakes states winter...

Deer tend to "yard" in these deep wildernes areas just outside of the primary snowbelts, using vast, thick cedar and spruce swamps for this purpose.

Hundreds of square miles of roadless, difficult terrain, interspersed with deep cedar thickets. Lots of rock outcrops, millions of blowdowns in the swamps.

These large, nearly impenatrable areas would be a prime place for sasquatch to hang out, and pick off the occasional straggler and weak deer, as well as have constant on-hand access to the pine and cedar needles mentioned earlier in the thread.

Wolves and coyotes make good use of this tactic, and may even provide an easier source of meat(a couple of bigfoot could likely drive off a pack of wolves from a kill).

So, I do think bigfood migrates in our area, but I think it is for relatively short distances, just far enough to find one of the many isolated deer yards, and there they set up shop in some hidden nook or cranny, as far away from any likely human travel as you can get in the lower 48, and munch on vennison for the winter!

Sasquatch would leave very little in the way of evidence in such an area, as they would be traveling in and out of extremely tough terrain, and most evidence such as tracks would be destroyed or covered by the next snowfall, or more likely, by the constant churning of thousands of deer hooves.

Just a theory mind you, but since the wolves, coyotes, and even our rare mountain lions seem to do this, why not sasquatch?

I noticed earlier in the thread that the possible use of food caches and road-kill was mentioned.

The food cache idea is, I think, very valid in this instance. Deer and other food could easily be cached or saved for extended periods of time, possibly buried in the snow, placed in trees(there have been a few cases of dead deer being found high in trees in Michigan, which to me leaves only sasquatch and cougars as realisitc possibilities, both of which are not generaly accepted to be living here).

As to road kill, while I don't doubt that bigfoot will take "road pizza" if he finds it, I don't think it will be a major feature of his diet in the upper midwest. The reason is that roadkill drops drasticaly in winter for a couple of reasons. First, the movement and activity of most wildlife drops drasticaly in winter, reducing by an equal ammount the number of car-wildlife encounters.

Secondly, in many of the most "weather impaired" areas, there is little in the way of roads or traffic anyway!

When the only road for 40 miles is a few logging two-tracks, which are covered in 5 feet of snow, autos just are not an option. While some roads remain open to logging vehicles and snowmowbiles, these account for very few roadkills.

And, the main roads that do get traveled, have reduced numbers of kills for the previous reasons, so all in all, there just aint' much winter meat to be had this way!

Now, certainly the "wilderness" aspect is not universal up here, many areas with brutal weather are indeed quite built up(Duluth, Marquette, just to name a couple), but all in all, much of this area really is not subject to roadkill of the type found in areas of greater general habitation.

Like the PNW, this is the real deal, true back country, and I think anything living here must rely on natural means to subsist.

Thats why I think, if bigfoot really does move seasonaly, they may well move into the deer yard areas because this is where the greatest concentration of food, with the least likelyhood of human encounters, is found.

[wabgftr]

Weather on the West coast is crappy right now. whats below Idaho and Montana?? could be warmer then here in Wa. state. just a thought. take care-

[norcal logger]

I have been working on a paper for years that I just can't seem to finish, but essentially, I have overlaid what I know about Native American landuse (ie., archaeological site locations), deer herd movement, plant maturation and sighting reports (that RB and I have personally investigated) and there is a definite correlation. I haven't factored in fish but I rightfully should. However, fire is clearly a HUGE factor that shouldn't be overlooked....

RB literally spent all spring, summer and fall (we're not officially in winter yet) in the field and although we had negative data, what we learned was amazing. The fires in the Sierra's and valley this spring and summer caused plant maturation to be set back a month and a half...I normally have tomatoes in June, but I had nothing until the middle of July. Thimbleberry, service berry, gooseberry, elderberry, etc. were all equally late in blooming and some didn't produce fruit before they died. RB saw no/little deer or bear in our usual areas that should have been "hot" at the times he was there. This tells us a lot - if sightings are random or made up, environmental variants shouldn't affect it - but yet not only did he not find any traces, no one else reported them either. How are lies affected by real environmental differences??

HM, that is really interesting what your hubby observed. There were some late season microclimate frosts around here and I noticed the death of the new folliage in certain areas but what really interested me was the retention of some of my favorite birds (various woodpeckers) long after their normal migration to the higher terrain. I still haven't quite figured it out but I have some theories. If it's not too much trouble, could you explain the relation between the lightning fires and the plant maturation? I noticed the same sort of thing and wondered if it was also affecting the birds. Was the incredibly dense smoke we had responsible for this?

Just curious. I live with an open eye and am incredibly curious. Thanks, Norcal

[PEPPERSFARMS]

Weather on the West coast is crappy right now. whats below Idaho and Montana?? could be warmer then here in Wa. state. just a thought. take care-

The one thing about crappy weather is humans don’t venture out in it too much. So extreme weather maybe advantageous for this creature.

According to Drovers Journal for cattle the comfort zone for cattle is in the mid 30’s of course that is variable due to moister, wind and etc. What may seem like extreme to us, maybe comfortable for BF.

[Hairy Man]

HM, that is really interesting what your hubby observed. There were some late season microclimate frosts around here and I noticed the death of the new folliage in certain areas but what really interested me was the retention of some of my favorite birds (various woodpeckers) long after their normal migration to the higher terrain. I still haven't quite figured it out but I have some theories. If it's not too much trouble, could you explain the relation between the lightning fires and the plant maturation? I noticed the same sort of thing and wondered if it was also affecting the birds. Was the incredibly dense smoke we had responsible for this?

Just curious. I live with an open eye and am incredibly curious. Thanks, Norcal

Fire (be it natural or human caused) can put an enormous amount of smoke into the air and block sunlight from fully reaching the ground. Depending on the size of the fire or number of fires, there can be a significant amount of days with smoke in the air - not to mention that since smoke drifts, just because there isn't a fire within 50 miles of you doesn't mean there isn't an affect.

We had a lot of fires in NorCal this year. This caused snow to stay on the ground longer than normal and for plants not to get the amount of sunlight they needed to reach their maturation at their normal times (i.e., if it takes 90 days from seeding for a plant to produce berries, this year those plants took on average 30 days more and many produced nothing). This in turn causes animals who depend on those plants to change their patterns as well.

I was talking with several tribes the other day and they were all lamenting the poor acorn crop this year and how it may affect them next year.

[nightwing]

Excellent reference there DDA... thanks!

Here's an awesome (old) post by nightwing regarding migration... (hope you don't mind nightwing):

Not at all RB!
Although, for some areas I may have to amend that(areas with less harsh winters, or just not as much snow). In those areas...my guess remains deep swamps, but pines and cedar may play a larger part then I had earlier banked on and deer yards less, or even much less. The carbohydrate/sugar aspect of evergreens is becoming more and more interesting to me.

[Sandy]

When I think of Bigfoot "migration", I prefer the Cromagnon, or Neaderthal, perspective. Of a small clan of a few families, moving dependant on the environment and their successful existance within an area. The term migration, can't really be used in this context, as in other animals that travel for seasons, over vast areas, for food or breeding times. It also depends on the "culture" of the groups, the learned and instinctual survival techniques passed down for generations, within their geographical area. Movement of groups in the California/Oregon, would be different than in deep Canada, actic zones. Ancient man had migration zones, dependant on seasons, higher or lower elevations etc, but rarely went beyond their inherited areas, unless run out of them by larger clans, or environmental problems. Why leave what works for you?

Genetic differnces can be seen in some of the sightings, hair color, size, aggression levels, curiousity levels. This tends to show a set movement area, within their cultural limits, with changes in their dna expressions coming from their new environments. Loose males, as in other species, may be run off, and move into new areas, steal a female, or kill a lead male, start their own clan, etc.. Speculation there, but, the ancient human, or even the chimp clan setup seems most plausible.

As usual, Graz, you've got a sound voice of reason.