Migration, Is there any evidence either way Options

[Elder]

In reading the many post on this forum and listening to the various Blog radio programs, I occationally see the topic of migration come up. Is there any evidence one way or the other? I seem to remember Jimmy Chillcut on LMS mention that he found the same dermal ridges on two different cast that were made years apart and also from different states aswell. It is obvoius that track casts would probably be the only way to support this since visual identification is rare at best. Besides the example I just stated, are there any others?

[lookinginmichiga...]

I am of the opinion that like many animals they would have a large range, the bigger the animal the more room it needs.

[Elder]

If there is enough food, water, cover indefinately for a BF, why would it need to travel 40-50 miles to another likeable spot? I realize that not too many foot prints are found anymore so we are only guessing. Does anyone else remember the statment from LMS?

[Hitechhunter]

If someone could create 12 maps, one for each month of the year, then locate each sighting on the map for the month, it may indicate a pattern of moving down in elevation and/or south during the winter. There are enough reports to make a fairly good statistical comparison. Anybody up for the task?

[Paul1968UK]

Is it just me that spotted the unintended pun in the subtitle of this thread?




Yes, probably just me.

[Elder]

Hi Paul, you liked the sub-tittle? Well at least it got me a couple of responses.

I've done maps for an area of intrest trying to find the same thing. The problem is that my sightings map shows that the BF's only hang out on major roads 9 months out of the year. I know that is not true. And I doubt that witness' are seeing the same animal in these different locations. The sightings map that I created for Pierce Co. Wa. shows activity in a given area with out large gaps in time (2 years or more). Indicating that the animal may stay in a local area like deer or elk. I am of the opinion that Bf dont migrate great distances unless they are pushed out of an area or their species is expanding. I was trying re-read some of the many books out there to see if I can find evidence to support a miragtion and found the cast discussion on "LMS". But what I dont know is who presented the casts. Jimmy Chillcut claimed that they were authentic casts.
Does anyone else have an opinion, or should I just stick to lurking?
-Chuck

[lookinginmichiga...]

When I say range I mean "area" not migration. To me migration is seasonal in one place and seasonal in another mostly for food, breeding, etc. There are sightings at high elevations as well as hard winter areas so BF must be able to adapt to seasonal changes. If the same footprint can be found in two locations that could support my thought the move in large areas. I certainly don't know...just a guess.

[StacyInMI]

Is it just me that spotted the unintended pun in the subtitle of this thread?

HAH! Not 'til you pointed it out.

[Hitechhunter]

I think they are somewhat nomadic, making them very difficult to pattern. We go through "hot periods" when there is a lot of activity ("a lot" being a relative term) and then years with no activity. The early 70's were very active, as was the middle of this decade. Most activity in our neck of the woods appears to be in late summer, early fall, and I assume that is the breeding season.

[nightwing]

I think they are somewhat nomadic, making them very difficult to pattern. We go through "hot periods" when there is a lot of activity ("a lot" being a relative term) and then years with no activity. The early 70's were very active, as was the middle of this decade. Most activity in our neck of the woods appears to be in late summer, early fall, and I assume that is the breeding season.

Hitch, I tend to agree on a breeding season. With very few exceptions, all wild animals have a well defined breeding season. The reason for this is simple, in that it's timed so that their young are born early the following spring(at least, in most cases), so that the young have the maximum potential growth period before the following winter. Of course, this may not hold true in tropical areas and in some areas the "window" will of course not be summer, but something such as a wet season..but in any case, the point is that the breeding season is thus offset by whatever the normal gestation period is for said animal.
In our case, that is 9 months, which is very similar I belive in other great apes. Postulating that BF is a great ape(I don't think there is much argument in that), then if it's gestation is of similar length to ours, then a mid summer-early fall breeding season is to be expected.

This post has been edited by nightwing: Mar 12 2008, 09:06 PM

[Elder]

I lean towards the late Dr. Krantz' theroy. No matter when a Bf gets pregnent, the mother or infant is going to be vulnerable to winter either during gestation or the infants first winter. I think a male will mate with a non-lactating female whenever or however, it can.

Was I the only one that heard the duplicate dermal ridges on different sets of cast miles apart and also years apart? I think it was on LMS, I am going to watch it again to see if I heard correctly. I might of heard it on one of the BFRO symposium DVDs. Or I might just be hearing things.

[Hitechhunter]

It is my understanding that dermal ridges were indeed observed, but i don't believe he was indicating that they were from the same individual creature.

[VAFooter]

Hard to know if they migrate since we don't know what their "normal" range is. Guess you are going to have to electronically tag the next one you see...

There was one case where a crippled bigfoot made some tracks in Washington (I think) and then months later the same tracks showed up in either Oregon or California. I cannot remember the details or which site reported the info. While this does not prove anything, it does show that they are capable of long range movement over time.

[Medfordbigfoot]

There is some data to suggest that in Southern Oregon and Northern California there does seem to be a Migratory situation that occurs. This involves Squatches wintering in the lower Valleys of Del Norte, and Humboldt Counties in Northern California. As Spring comes in to the region and the weather warms, it seems that the Squatches in Del Norte County will move back into the higher peaks of the Coast Range, and the Siskiyous of Southern Oregon. The Squatches of Humboldt County make their way back into the Coast Range, and even back to the Trinity Alps. I found in four years of independent research that there seem to be peaks in Encounters in the low valleys and along the Coast in Northern California in the Winter months. Meanwhile, there is a noticeable decrease in Bigfoot activity in the Siskiyous of Southern Oregon. In the Spring, and certainly in the Summer that trend reverses itself.

The recent BFRO Expedition here in Southern Oregon actually helped verify that. The Expedition did have contact with Squatches, and the area where this occured had not been previously scouted by them, (BFRO). The area had also just a had a major snowpack melt off. Matt Moneymaker has a theory that actually ties into Migration, and it was borne out to be true.

[longtabber PE]

The recent BFRO Expedition here in Southern Oregon actually helped verify that. The Expedition did have contact with Squatches, and the area where this occured had not been previously scouted by them, (BFRO). The area had also just a had a major snowpack melt off. Matt Moneymaker has a theory that actually ties into Migration, and it was borne out to be true.

This I gotta hear

[RedRatSnake]

Matt Moneymaker has a theory that actually ties into Migration, and it was borne out to be true.

Hi

Go for it

Peace
Tim

[wabgftr]

Any responses to this thread are all individual theroies. The only way we can find out is to have teams in areas that are easily traveled. No matter what u are terrain dictates all movement. All reports are by chance. The time we take from our busy schedule and go to their "house, uninvited" and happen upon them, or have some sort of an experince is all by chance. of course, this is just my opinion. take care- jacob

[JimAkridge]

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Alot of animals travels great distances for breeding along with weather conditions changing such as winter starting to set in
furthermore alot of animals shed there winter coat to summer one to which requires them to move south ward outside the cold
zone.
Ainmals are known for migration of 100's of miles in a single distance for breeding, Now a animal to which seams to operate with stealth like movements would be used extreme caution in these movements traveling cross country.Further
more such activities would sudjest that there smart enough to solve problems like avoid being seen in great numbers while
moving or gathering .

The old timers say they were a evil from way back ! Being from the dark ages to were made men cross gens and did
create test tube babies of mixtures between animals and man. The refers to such actions in the old testament and breeding
people with animals to were they were both to be put to death and the offspring too!
If such activities did taken place and the creation was turned lose into the forest to live,then as they breeded into different family groups to which would migrate to other areas and to continue with this activities to were they had even crossed oceans
or narrow land paths into other sections of the world,could of spread them abroad worldwide.
Remeber during the mad scenctist days when there was grossly evil,these men did create extreme issues of concern to
the rest of the world during this time and people was banned from towns according to history,they can't all be legons without facts or true elements.

And to say if they were part man with thinking and problem solving ability what to say they didn't place there dead into the ground after seeing us! To which leaded by example for them .

Who really knows Hunter Jim

[Grazhopprr]

When I think of Bigfoot "migration", I prefer the Cromagnon, or Neaderthal, perspective. Of a small clan of a few families, moving dependant on the environment and their successful existance within an area. The term migration, can't really be used in this context, as in other animals that travel for seasons, over vast areas, for food or breeding times. It also depends on the "culture" of the groups, the learned and instinctual survival techniques passed down for generations, within their geographical area. Movement of groups in the California/Oregon, would be different than in deep Canada, actic zones. Ancient man had migration zones, dependant on seasons, higher or lower elevations etc, but rarely went beyond their inherited areas, unless run out of them by larger clans, or environmental problems. Why leave what works for you?

Genetic differnces can be seen in some of the sightings, hair color, size, aggression levels, curiousity levels. This tends to show a set movement area, within their cultural limits, with changes in their dna expressions coming from their new environments. Loose males, as in other species, may be run off, and move into new areas, steal a female, or kill a lead male, start their own clan, etc.. Speculation there, but, the ancient human, or even the chimp clan setup seems most plausible.

[Elder]

Wabgftr, good to hear from you!

[wiiawiwb]

In one of the BF televised shows (MQ, Giganto, or one of the other ones) Dr. Estaban Sarmiento was interviewed and showed a map of Colorado with sightings color coded based upon the season. If memory serves me, I believe he said that as the seasons changed so did the frequency of sightings, year after year, indicating the possibility of migratory activity.

[bipedalist]

I would agree with a zonal nomadism, with repeated visits to the same areas in certain seasons for available sustenance (as long as that environment remains intact), if a circuit like this is not dependent on weather, would it truly be considered migration though?

[Grazhopprr]

Jeff Meldrum learned a hard lesson about migration, with his last trip to Canada. Spending thousands of dollars, and several weeks of setup, only to get nothing. Then discovering sightings many miles southeast, where the blueberries were ripening. They travel with the seasons and food supply. Regional seasonal access to fruits and such do have an effect, and should be mapped out, before spending large amounts of time and money on a hunt.

[boogerbottom]

I have had more than a little spare time lately due to a knee surgery and after reading this thread and some similiar ones I experimented with some rudimentary mapping techniques. I am currently playing around with some various scenarios and data compilations based solely on the BFRO sightings database. (If there is another database available elsewhere I would apreciate a link) Just from initial results I am having a difficult time patterning any sort of migration or even a solid seasonal correlation. I have since began prioritizing the data on the basis of type of encounter as provided by the data. Early results (about 50% complete of sightings in the last 20 years) currently show no clear patterns either.

I may be going about this the wrong way, anybody got ideas? Where did previous researchers draw their conclusions, esp. the ones mentioning a finite number of the BF currently thought to be in N America? Is it considered commoon knowledge that BF are social animals and reside in some sort of group? I can find info that suggest both and would also ask whether those who support the group theory consider this a permanent arrangement or based something like available food, family orientation, breeding opportunity, etc.? Just a guess, but the impact of a group vs that of a single individual on an environment and whatever the BF consume wpould lead me to believe they would be forced to move to new habitats in order to survive. Whereas, maybe a sole BF could exist within a more confined locale as that may allow time for the area to replenish itself.

Whether or not BF are solitary or group animals may be a big factor in determining whether or not there is a definate pattern of migration or relocation. Maybe if such a pattern could be identified, it would narrow the scope of research to an extent that would yield some conclusive evidence? Last question...what does one call a group of BF if they do indeed exist this way? A gaggle? A flock? A pod? A herd? I can't even remember what they call gorillas and chimps so I am grasping at straws.

[vilnoori]

a tribe, of course.

I agree with bipedalist, it is logical to think that there is zonal nomadism, or what you might call "following the food supply." I don't think weather has much to do with it given the huge range of localities sightings occur in. There might be an elevation movement, same as deer do, down in the winter, up in the summer, where there are large elevation changes. And of course there is the possibility that males travel around and "service" large areas of relatively stable female-dominant small family units. There certainly seems to be a sexual dimorphism evident, which makes you think there is fierce competition for females (favoring the development of the biggest and best males over time). It may not be a hard and fast rule, however, just like in humans, where in some areas of the world the harem system or co-wives system predominates, and in others the monogamous (or somewhat so) system predominates. There are some sightings of apparently monogamous family units, but many more sightings of a lone male or lone female, sometimes with one or two young ones. It probably to some extent depends on population density, resource availability and culture.

[RB]

I really don't see how most of them could survive and not migrate... to some degree at least...

Evidence... now you see them, now you don't...

Migration... according to Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary :

mi·grate

1 : to move from one country, place, or locality to another
2 : to pass usually periodically from one region or climate to another for feeding or breeding
3 : to change position in an organism or substance <filarial worms migrate within the human body>

[belemnoid]

Even if you map it it's hard to see anything definitive. Here's the CA/OR border that someone was talking about earlier. The sightings (I've lumped all types) are colored and labeled by month.




Link to Map

[damndirtyape]

Those dots may tell us more about where people might be found in that certain area then Bigfoot. I would try and connect the dots in to circles of logical size, a size I might think a Bigfoot might find suitable for a home range and then head for the center of it, where there are no red or yellow dots. You see I believe that most sightings and track finds are:

1. A mistake on the part of the animal. It didn't intend to be see. Maybe heard, as a warning, but not seen. It didn't want to get invaded by another primate. It doesn't want to share it's resources and it certainly doesn't feel safe around strange creatures that can manipulate the land around them. Tracks may be just a warning to others. They may be very aware of making tracks and avoid doing so except when surprised and exiting an area quickly.
2. Proving out that similar mammals (Bigfoot and Humans) would most likely compete for resources in a given area. In this case it could be along a road that penetrates through the habitat or a river that has excellent cool water and fish. Direct competition would seek an equilibrium along each of the mammals home range boundaries.
3. Are clues to a home range. The core in the center would not be used if it too had shared boundaries with humans.
4. Telling us that for the most part, Bigfoot migrates from hot to cold, food rich to food poor, mate rich to mate poor. This could mean that traveling from one home range to another would suffice. A female and male home range could exist side by side. This could also mean that migration for the most part is vertical. Go higher and it gets cooler and is a different season for certain resources. Traveling great migratory or even meandering distances are for herd animals or ones that fly.

My idea of Bigfoot research is about looking at the collected data. Evaluating its worth. Forming a theory and then experimenting to try and nullify it. I say this because of the nature of the beast. It would be easier to nullify the theory then to prove it at first. It helps weedle down the hay pile your searching through. Remember that I also think these creatures are not that numerous. My version of your map doesn't place as much enphasis on exactr places where sightings and tracks occur but as to where they occur in relationship to others and natural boundaries, like with watersheds.

Reposting your map then would look something like this. I would further clarify things on it for myself but I was trying to illustrate my process... not define it.

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[Elder]

Great replys! I live very near BFRO report #1685. I also have a great view of the ridge area of the reported sighting. I thought I heard vocals coming from that same ridge in May of 2005 when building my house. Always wondered if there was a route through there. The land is privately owned and requires a pass to access and you must be out by dark. DDA, are your population estimates lower or high than that of Dr. Krantz?

[damndirtyape]

Great replys! I live very near BFRO report #1685. I also have a great view of the ridge area of the reported sighting. I thought I heard vocals coming from that same ridge in May of 2005 when building my house. Always wondered if there was a route through there. The land is privately owned and requires a pass to access and you must be out by dark. DDA, are your population estimates lower or high than that of Dr. Krantz?

I would leave that to him. I haven't really looked on detailed maps of North America to see, just Washington mostly.

[PEPPERSFARMS]

I have always felt that these creatures are nomadtic in their nature maybe moving for food, shelter, weather conditions and out side pressure such as hunting seasons. Reproduction could also factor into their movements from one location to another.

The thing I wonder is are there some type of pattern we could pickup on? Why do they move from one point to another and what may trigger this movement. It seems that the area I’m in I observe signs that there my be activity and then a few weeks later nothing.

Just thinking out loud.

[RB]

Excellent thought provoking question PEPPERS…

Is there some type of pattern we could pickup on?

I think that would require years of research in a given area to recognize a pattern… the larger the area the animal has at its disposal, the more difficult that task would be… And if you accept as a given the animals do not wish to be discovered, it may be “programmed” in the animal not to present any sort of discernable pattern…

Why do they move from one point to another and what may trigger this movement?

As you suggest, moving for food, shelter, weather conditions and outside pressure such as hunting seasons are probably great starting points for consideration… and as dda suggests, mating is probably a huge consideration…

Perhaps another consideration may be any type of human activity, whether it is due to hunting, fishing, hiking, etc… or… perhaps even bigfoot research…

I remember reading an article regarding “constructing” a deer hunting area on private land. This article discussed the need for all aspects of a deer herd's needs… things like food plots, water resources; adequate cover near each of those, as well as cover to and from their bedding areas…

The article also discussed the absolute necessity for a “sanctuary area” which contained at least some of the resources already mentioned… It went on to explain the importance of this sacred area… This area is where the deer feels safe… in which it could rely to raise their young without fear of intrusion… by humans at least…

The article explained how, if you were to attempt to construct such an area on your property, you should create a clear area in the center in which the sunlight could penetrate and allow natural feed to flourish… but after that, never, ever enter that area again… for if you do, the area is no longer considered to be a sanctuary, and the deer will leave… not to return until subsequent generations…

Perhaps we might draw some correlations between deer behavior and sasquatch behavior… I wonder… maybe…

But… if this sanctuary theory holds true for Sas, then the type of research which requires deep penetration into the wilderness may, in and of itself, be a cause of movement, migration… whatever you wish to call it… and it may cause a derivation from their natural habits…

Questions trigger research… research triggers questions… and the two may not cross paths again for generations… except by happenstance…

So… if all this is true… Sas may have all but lost any natural behavioral patterns present for hundreds or even thousands of years… and if Sas is as sentient as I suspect, is it no wonder they throw rocks at us? Humans must be one huge pain in the butt to them…

[damndirtyape]

Exactly RB.

The home range core area is a problem waiting to be solved. How to monitor it without disturbance. Dress up to look like the animal? Install remote monitoring devices dropped by air? Long range optics? Should research avoid the core in hopes of maintaining their prescence and just concentrate the effort on the boundaries? This might establish an uncommunicated buffer zone that the animal will recognize over time and accept.

I think that racing in to areas suspected as Bigfoots core area may just be counterproductive in many cases. In the past I have hinted at abandoned structures in areas that had orchards at one time that have gone wild. These sites maybe a great place to monitor with cameras.

I favor camera blinds versus searching by foot all the terrain one can cover in hopes of seeing one or finding a track. It is OK to do this on the boundaries of an area, but it is great to build a tree house blind and set up observation from there.

Using a wide angle lens on a tripod in a tree with a zigview will capture all the movement in a scene. So will time lapse with still or video, but it won't alert you in realtime.

Many researchers only have limited time and resources and look towards cutting corners. Wildlife photographers don't sit in blinds for nothing.

This post has been edited by damndirtyape: Dec 19 2008, 01:05 PM