BFRO's Robert Leiterman's Sierra Snow Mounds Article, Late Spring 2005 Expedition comes upon enigma Options

[Volsquatch]

I'm very pleased to see this thread being discussed in such an open-minded manner without any trace of "bigfoot on the brain syndrom". I'll admit that I predicted this thread would by very one-sided, but that's not the case - well done.

Could someone have cleaned-off the frozen pond(if it freezes over, this can be verified) in order to get to the water underneath, placing the wood on top of the resulting mounds to dry for future use as kindling, but never getting the chance to use it? Or, maybe they simply piled up the mounds using snow from the surrounding area, then placed the wood on top to dry and use later as kindling. But, in both of these scenario's, there would be tracks and traces of human activity around the mounds.

What bothers me the most about this report is that there were no footprints or traces of activity found around the mounds or the surrounding area(except for one set of human bootprints). Someone had to have made these mounds, making footprints in the process. Since I'm fairly sure sasquatch do not have the ability to fly, nor was it Hugo the giant abominable snowman stopping to take a dump while he let Daffy play in the pond, using the wood chips for toilet paper, then I would logically conclude that the tracks were erased away for some reason. I cannot accept that a sasquatch would burn the amount of calories it would take to perform this task, especially in winter. If they're as big and burly as reported up there, and they do not hibernate(hence the reported winter time activity), then I'm sure gathering food is a primary objective - not spending time to pile-up the mounds, gathering the wood chips and then spending hours covering their tracks, wasting valuable daylight in the process. So, I must conclude that it was human activity, humans with a backpack containing food, and some shelter to go back to at night. Now, the reasons behind this human activity, however odd, are debatable.

This post has been edited by Volsquatch: Dec 5 2007, 12:52 AM

[Tnwoods]

Could simply more snow have erased all footprints? If only a fairly light snow, the wood piles would probably still be exposed being up off the ground, while any tracks - human or otherwise - would most likely be filled in.

I'm not always trying to be a jerk.

[rockinkt]

Changing snow conditions can make it very hard - if not impossilble - to ascertain anything with any degree of certainty.
That said - I think this is an interesting discussion about a phenomenon I have never encountered in my many years in the bush.
Kuddos for those who took the time to study this as they did and present their observations. BF or not - it is interesting!

Whether or not one agrees that others could or should have done something more or different is really not an issue to get worked up about.
There is always something more that could have been done - or done differently. No-one can think of everything on site - nor is there always time or resources to do it all.
I know that there were limitations on time and resources in this case. Seeing who was involved - I certainly do not think that there was any shortage of knowledge or experience or level-headedness.
So - please do not take the following as a criticism - just my .2 cents worth based on my own time in the bush in winter.

Whenever I have tried to ascertain what sort of an animal might have made tracks and when it made them in changing snow conditions - I excavate from the side. That way - I can expose the full story of the snow or the melt/freeze patterns. Think of it as looking at the rings of a tree.
With a little practice and knowledge of the area's snow - one can see the snow types and where the freeze and/or evaporation occured between snowfalls. This also shows melts and rain layers as well.
If one spots this type of formation in the future - I would suggest that they excavate the mound from the side - from one side to the other - until the vertical plane of the centre top is reached. Think of it as your finished product looking like someone has just come along with a large knife and cut it exactly down the middle to the ground and swept the one side away. That way -one could read the snow patterns and come up with a possible rough estimate of dates.
For example - the patterns exposed could show heavy or light depths of snow followed by a melt, then more snow. Looking back on the year - one could possibly find or remember when that pattern occured. The beginning of the last pattern on the non-natural part part of the formation could then give you an approximate time when the non-natural part was made.
If one then compared the snow patterns on each of the mounds - one could then possibly discover if they were made around the same time or not as well.
Of course - one might find natural snow patterns throughout, which would lead one to conclude that these were natural - but unusual - formations.


edited for clarity - hopefully.

This post has been edited by rockinkt: Dec 5 2007, 03:23 AM

[the evilist sere...]

oh this one's a no-brainer ... BOY SCOUTS ...

(jusssssss' kiddin') ;-7

[longhunter]

A snow shelter built by hunters,trappers,or hopefully not poachers who have had proper training handed down create a {coldsink} a lowspot where a small fire in modern times in a mess kit or skillet ect. to keep fire dry and contained.A mound is made coverd for ins. then a leanto is made with a tarp or available material.In front of mound bed cold air collects creating a much warmer place to sleep.I suspect a local tribsman or other serious outdoorsman.

[Sac-squatch]

Having grown up in the same neck of the woods as mentioned, and also having been a part of some of these fuel reduction projects. I would completely agree with Kathy Strain's assessment. Having seen the pictures posted on the BFRO it was my initial impression. Bart, do you care to disclose GPS coordinates to this area? Anyways, just my two cents.

[julio12]

bartlojays
Were you able to see your own tracks where you walked to see the mounds?Also how hard was the ground ?if there was dry ground and you could not see your own tracks then is it poseble that if it was animal made that then thier tracks could also not be seen either.

[Hairy Man]

Since I didn't really fully answer your question earlier Bart - I thought I should clarify in my opinion, mound one was formed when the snow was high and the cedar snag next to it collapsed allowing the bark to fall over the snow and protect it from melting at the same rate as the snow surrounding it. Nothing I see of the photos of mound one shows that the bark is uniform in size or from a different location. The cedar stump I saw was broken at the same height as the mound (i.e., same height as the snow when it broke) indicating the snow was protecting the tree from the snow line down. Does that make sense?

[hopeful]

Since I didn't really fully answer your question earlier Bart - I thought I should clarify in my opinion, mound one was formed when the snow was high and the cedar snag next to it collapsed allowing the bark to fall over the snow and protect it from melting at the same rate as the snow surrounding it. Nothing I see of the photos of mound one shows that the bark is uniform in size or from a different location. The cedar stump I saw was broken at the same height as the mound (i.e., same height as the snow when it broke) indicating the snow was protecting the tree from the snow line down. Does that make sense?

Yes, that makes perfect sense! Could the snag have been tall enough to reach the mound two location? Could the trails of debris from the source to the mounds just be where the tree had fallen and deteriorated?


As far as footprints, if it was hand-made, then the footprints would have been in the former snow around the mounds and subsequently melted along with that snow, right?

[Hairy Man]

The mounds were on the opposite side of the pond from each other.

It doesn't surprise me no prints were found...that ground was pretty hard.

[dogu4]

Hmm. I don't live in a snowy area currently but if I did it would think it'd be a nifty little experiment to pitch a tent on a platform of bark and punky old wood as an insulator, on top of a couple feet of snow compacted with snowshoes. I bet it would be great for a couple of nights...remove the tent and then observe how it degrades in the warming spring. Of course it would be a lot more fun to ski in from someplace like Porcupine Flats for a couple of days, then back again when the weather's gettin' good like in early june.

[hopeful]

The mounds were on the opposite side of the pond from each other.

It doesn't surprise me no prints were found...that ground was pretty hard.

If the longer debris trail went in an arc around the pond to the mound area (as opposed to being in a strait line connecting the two mounds and the source of the debris - as though the snag was tall enough to fall and create both debris piles as it naturally decomposed), that might point toward them being hand-made.

oh this one's a no-brainer ... BOY SCOUTS ...

(jusssssss' kiddin') ;-7

Boy Scouts might not be such a stretch, TES. I wonder if the area club has records of their recent camping trips.

Hmm. I don't live in a snowy area currently but if I did it would think it'd be a nifty little experiment to pitch a tent on a platform of bark and punky old wood as an insulator, on top of a couple feet of snow compacted with snowshoes. I bet it would be great for a couple of nights...remove the tent and then observe how it degrades in the warming spring. Of course it would be a lot more fun to ski in from someplace like Porcupine Flats for a couple of days, then back again when the weather's gettin' good like in early june.

Sounds like a really good comparison test, Dogu4.

[bartlojays]

Kath- bear with me as I'm busy all day and will get back to this thread tonight, just wanted to quickly answer some other questions of people. But, your opinion brings up alot more questions about mound "one" including the fact that the fallen stump and all of its outside bark is accounted for and covering the partial base of the mound as well as partially the ground and explains the fallen "stump" or tree that we mentioned the drift sharing space with, but not the shapeness or the particular organic material covering the mound itself. In -other-words, what I'm trying to say is that the fallen tree and covered mound are two unrelated events in our opinion that are essentially side by side. Mound two is a whole different story as not only was this mound perfectly encased with blanket-like debris(naturally or artificially) which help protect and shield it from sunlight, but that debris was in an obvious trail coming from the snag 20-25 ft from mound two. The debris also matches mound one, yet I could find no other deadfall within the whole circumference of the area opened up with that accessible debris (that's why the debris trails "stood out" and were of the reddish tinge you see in the pictures)
Anyway, I'll we'll have a bunch more to discuss later when I can get my butt back on here tonight. In the interim Kath, if you've got pics of mound one at the stage when you were there in person- send them, please to my email, myspace etc... I'm dying to see the progression of deterioration on this mound. Hopefully, we'll have some comparison shots as well to post here for everybody.

Volsquatch- thanks for weighing in and you bring up a good and relevant point about these being potentially sasquatch-related and why would one of these animals burn the calories necessary to complete one of these mounds at that time of year, what purpose? having said that and absolutely agreeing with you, I also would think this would be an even bigger problem with humans, especially if in fact that organic material of various sizes did come from the snag we're contending it did 20-25 ft away from mound two. I mean we're talking about a 4ft by 8 mound (picture doesn't do it justice size-wise) here.
As for sign, besides the bootprints found on the soft soil surrounding part of the pond which was a confirmed member of our party from the day before, deer sign also surrounding the pond and some little small snow patches- that was about the only conducive and exposed surfaces for noticeable sign for anything back there. Their was also no sign of any brush crew's presence, burn or slash piles back there either. I'm also assuming (knowing their was snowfall within prior weeks) that whatever sign was there when these mounds were created would have dissipated with the surrounding melted snow. I will tell you though, Kathy is right, boy it smelled back there and was just god-awful-most bites I've ever had.

Sac-squatch- I never had the GPS coordinates, if I did I'd have no problem sharing them with you but this area is a beautiful and "squatchy" place, if you will, that Kathy chose (she did a great job) and as far as I'm concerned the location identity is at Kathy's discretion out of respect for herand her research. I'd love to here more insight though from you since you've participated in these fuel reduction projects and you've likely had a chance to read the article and see the seperate mound pictures. To me, slash and burn piles are a dime a dozen and ironically it's pictures of these piles that the public has shared with us (BFRO) in light of this article and nothing appearing even close to these mounds as of yet.

[Hairy Man]

I didn't keep the GPS coordinates - but Sac-squatch you have a PM.

Bart - I'll send you the photos when I get home tonight.

[socaldave]

Before Robert put his article online he asked me to read it for flow and understandability. We also by phone discussed the mound piles and what they could be. I have heard both sides and to be honest it could be anything IMO. My thinking is if a bigfoot did make this, why? I always try to stay open to what folks have to say but this is a head scratcher if you do attribute it to a bf. JMO

[Hominid,WA]

Bart, was the topic of Beavers, and their scent mounds located in or around ponds discussed or brought up? Just curious.

[Flashman]

Just thinking about this thread again the other day. With the thaw we've had here, all the accumulated snow piles have been melting down. In fact today they were all gone. I missed an opportunity to get pics of some formed snow mounds around the neighbourhood, due to the fast thaw. There were several with different kinds of material. All were due to debris being thrown up by plows from the side of the road into the snow heaps, and then coating the tops of the snow banks as they melted out. One was with turf (the plow scraped the grassy shoulder and carved off a lot) one with leaves (swept to side of road before snow) one with gravel. I even had a less impressive version form on my front lawn with a mixture of twigs and leaves. Personally it confirmed my suspicion that any quantity of debris mixed in with snow or cast on top of it, will tend to look like a mound as it melts down. These features were of a lesser scale than those observed in the Sierras, but I beleive duplicated the essential characteristics very well. Typically the debris was densest at the peak of the mound and thinned around the sides of it. I saw them the other morning when they were about "perfect" in development but by the time the afternoon rolled round and I had a thought and a chance of going out with the camera, they were just slush puddles.

[RedRatSnake]

Hi


I thought i would start a thread on the bfro forum and see what happens, i asked why they jump so quick on things like the Jacobs pictures, the snow mounds, films that are certainly hoaxes, there was one reply, that told me to go on a bfro expedition and find out for myself.......... then i was banned from posting the thread was deleted,,,,,,, hahahahahaha,,,,,, guess they don't take to kindly to asking questions

Peace
Tim

This post has been edited by redratsnake: Jan 9 2008, 04:30 PM

[Hominid,WA]

You ain't the first, and won't be the last my friend.

[Rounder]

It was the pictures of the snow mounds that finally got me to sign up on that board after lurking for a couple of months. They looked like quinzees to me -- a type of simple snowshelter -- and after reading for a few days that they were graves, territorial markers or some kind of sasquatch beer fridge, I couldn't stand it anymore and I logged on to inject some sanity into the thread. You can imagine how far that got me. I did manage to get a few people on my side, but any logic on that site is quickly drowned in a sea of mindless speculation. After a week or so, to be quite honest, I felt embarrassed to be part of it all, so I deleted all my comments just before I was quietly given the heave-ho. I didn't protest.

[RedRatSnake]

You ain't the first, and won't be the last my friend.

Hi

I really don't care for that forum, baning me just reinforced my belief that they just call anything that looks like a hairy animal BF, give it time i bet they come up with a zebra striped BF

Peace Brother
Tim

[bipedalist]

Don't feel bad RRS, I paid the suckers for an expedition, had them
investigate my research area, and they still banned me on my first
laissez-faire post. Bad company will inbreed over there, let it fulminate
some

This post has been edited by bipedalist: Jan 9 2008, 06:44 PM

[RedRatSnake]

Hi


Thats a bummer, i was looking into the Maine expedition, it would have been close and easy to get too, but not now...............


Peace
Tim

[socaldave]

Hi
I thought i would start a thread on the bfro forum and see what happens, i asked why they jump so quick on things like the Jacobs pictures, the snow mounds, films that are certainly hoaxes, there was one reply, that told me to go on a bfro expedition and find out for myself.......... then i was banned from posting the thread was deleted,,,,,,, hahahahahaha,,,,,, guess they don't take to kindly to asking questions

Peace
Tim

ahhhhh..... you learn quickly grasshopper!

[bipedalist]

You like to live dangerously RRS, when are you scheduling time and budgeting for one of their
expeditions....? If you get a chance the Michigan UP area sure seemed to have some
strange stuff going on such as a small disemboweled shrew thrown in front of a truck
....no kidding

[RedRatSnake]

Hi


"O" i am not going on anything with them.............. my mind was made up months ago even before i joined up here, i like to keep it simple not stupid I'll waste the $ i was going to spend this summer fishing for a sea monster out Stellwagen Bank,,,,


Peace Brother
Tim